Proposal: A change to the rank structure in WMD

Cardinal wrote:Lack of progress is the number 1 morale killer. It is the number 1 raid group killer.... ...WMD will die faster than you can blink.

...is there anybody in Team B who thinks they have the gear, experience and motivation to be in Team A?... Team B people are not shit! They are not dead weight. If they were, I wouldn't do my best and figure out how to keep them happy.

It's just a mere fact that people in Team A have a greater chance of securing a new hard mode kill. That's all it is. It's not a popularity contest.

Y'know, I had all this nearly-indignant reply formed in my head, and it sounds good still...

However, nearly getting f'n fired from my job today due to corporate idiocy and blindness has kinda stolen my 'I could give a fark' button.

I raid more with PUGs than with you guys, through lack of availability on my part. I haven't raided in over a month at all. Content progress and competition seems important to WMD now and I could give a flip about it.

Lack of progress will make the raid group die? Shutting people out into second string will make said people not be around or new people who aren't 'geared enough' quit after being shut out a few times.

Ah I'm just rambling a bit. I see the points of this structure and it's all well and good. Doesn't mean it won't make some people feel neglected or shut out either. Don't be surprised if most of your second string, or cheering squad, ends up not signing up most days after a while since it wouldn't do any good to do so.

And here I'd thought that having all three raid days off this week meant I might actually get to raid at some point.

Well damn I guess I managed indignant and snarky anyhow. I'm really not, just typing what comes to my brain, as I'm in a highly apathetic frame of mind right now.

I'll still be around to chatter with on the raid chan, and maybe even be available to be PUGged a couple times.

More so if I get fired.

And no, I'm not whining to try and get a bid in on the raid tomorrow. I could really care less, and would feel like shit going out of pity or placation.

I'm going to stop now.

-Huntard.

Remember I didn't press a magic button and make WMD more progression-focused. It happened naturally because the majority of people wanted it.

The group has never stopped changing. I think it's one of our strengths.

Sooner or later we'll change so much that somebody won't like it here any more. I'll do whatever I can to help that person if they tell me specifically what's wrong, but I can't fix everything.

Your concern seems to be that you feel excluded from the raid group. Unfortunately this is because, and correct me if I'm wrong about this, your work schedule doesn't synch well with us. I can't do much about your work schedule.

However, I think the new system would have actually increased your chances to raid. We've got rid of “first come, first served” system which was unfair to people just like you, people who don't know when they're available until the last minute.

Looking at the sign-ups, you would have been given a guaranteed slot on Saturday under this new system. I could have never guaranteed that before.

I picked Li (who is also in Team B) for tonight because he hasn't raided for months either. To settle the tie, I picked him because he signed up first.

If I hadn't changed anything, under the old system you seem to prefer, you would have still missed out on Thursday's raid because you were the 6th DPSer to sign up.

At least now it's not pot luck when you get a spot.

Secondly, I disagree that we're excluding people. I'm still happy to accept people with poorer gear in WMD. Everybody in the group is welcome to be here. We're one of the best raid groups on the server and we still recruit people who aren't “hardcore”. The only difference is, I won't sit someone from Team A out if they sign, because without them we can't progress. There is still ample chance for everyone else to raid though. On Saturday there are presently 3 spots for "non hardcore" raiders.

If you really were so eager to visit Ulduar this week, rather than resigning, which has stopped any hope of it - you could have asked Li privately if he minded swapping with you because it's your 1 week off work. I'm sure he would've agreed.

I don't think you've been happy in WMD for some time, and I wish you the best of luck finding a new raid group that suits you and your schedule.

Unrelated to the immediate previous posts, I'd like to make a point.

I agree that lack of progression is a big morale killer.

Unfortunately, so is being relegated to an inferior team with little chance to improve gear or experienced.

At the end of the day (and no, I don't play football, so that phrase has meaning from me), it altogether depends on who you wish to please the most - the 'progressionists', or the 'tag-alongs'.

Thanks for my cushion, by the way Taq. 'Tis right comfy

After raiding with you guys on thursday (which was awesome ), the only problem i can see is with team B members getting a tad rusty. Because i haven't been raiding for awhile it took about an hour or so before i got comfortable with what i was meant to be doing and where. Especially at the beginning of the hard modes i've never done (Dahl's simple explanations helped tonnes ;P) while everyone else just got on with what they knew they had to do meant i felt a tad lost. But judging from my DPS during the bosses and everyone elses, i definately feel that if i work on getting some of my gear upgraded i could make it into team A within a short period of time.

Also, after raiding Naxx afew times as a standby with my current guild and once or twice with another raid group. I realised how awesome WMD is at pulling off casual raiding. There is very little pressure on the individuals in the group and everyone does their best because they want to progress to the next boss or help someone else get that shiny new loot. Even wiping isn't that bad, because we can just blame it on Bal and if he's not there, the other pallies

Who said I was resigning?

Heh, every time I've voiced disagreements about things, that's assumed.

I'll take that as a hint.

Li wrote:After raiding with you guys on thursday (which was awesome ), the only problem i can see is with team B members getting a tad rusty. Because i haven't been raiding for awhile it took about an hour or so before i got comfortable with what i was meant to be doing and where. Especially at the beginning of the hard modes i've never done (Dahl's simple explanations helped tonnes ;P) while everyone else just got on with what they knew they had to do meant i felt a tad lost. But judging from my DPS during the bosses and everyone elses, i definately feel that if i work on getting some of my gear upgraded i could make it into team A within a short period of time.

I have to say Li, I thought you peformed extremely well at Thursday's raid. Taking into consideration that your gear is not entirely on par with the rest of the group AND it's been a while since you last raided, you really impressed me atleast. You managed 7.000 DPS on Hodir which is quite impressive by itself. And you haven't fought him for quite some time! You were a little rusty on Thorim maybe, but nothing serious.

Faehla wrote:I'm going to stop now.

-Huntard.

I think that sentence combined with the signature has a resigning effect to it, and that may be why Cardinal thought you were resigning. I don't think anyone wants you to resign Faehla, as it would be sad to see a good player leave. If you're still keen on raiding, I know that there will atleast be one Team B spot in the next 4-5 raids as I will be away, so I think it's safe to say that you'll get the opportunity to raid. Ofcourse it has to fit your workschedule as well.

@ Rynar,

I disagree that people in team have “little chance to improve experience or gear”

We've still only had 1 raid without a single Team B member in it. In tonight's raid there will be 3-4 from Team B.

I don't think Team B have any less chance of gearing up now then they did in the past. Aldan is raiding for the first time in a long time tonight because of the rota changes.

If it's the label or stigma of B, which you called “inferior”, then that's just a perception. There is nothing inferior about Team B, unless you believe being a more casual raider is inferior.

I prefer to think of our 2 teams as 'Team Hardcore' and 'Team Casual'. Neither is better or worse than the other.

The only difference is if WMD wants to do hard modes on one night, we'll need to bring 'Team Hardcore'. This is just common sense. It's either that or nothing.



@ Li

I think we can all sympathise that Team B members might need a little warm-up period. I certainly would! You have been out of WoW for quite a while, and a lot has happened in that time, so it's understandable you felt a little lost. I'm sure that feeling will have gone if you did the same hard modes twice.

In terms of gear and experience, you've got what it takes to be in Team Hardcore. It's just your availability which is a little unknown still.

Unfortunately, if I let more than 10 people into Team Hardcore – it would reduce the chance of people in Team Casual getting to raid.

The more people there are in Team Hardcore, the rarer and rarer a spare slot would become. It would also force me to invent another rota, which would be a bit unfair to the DPSers, as they'd be only people rotated out.


@ Faehla

This could be me misinterpreting this comment:

“I'll still be around to chatter with on the raid channel, and maybe even be available to be PUGged a couple times.”

I took that to mean you were going resign from raiding? It sounds like it to me.

I was happy for you to stay around in the channel. You've been a lovely person to have in WMD. If I wanted you to leave WMD entirely, rest assured I would have asked you to (as I have to others, such as dear old Mirium).

Since then, however you pulled all your characters out of the channel by yourself, (after nobody commented on your joke in the channel during a raid in Ulduar), which confirmed my opinion that sadly things just weren't working out for us.

You are welcome to stay in the channel and socialise with us, if that's what you want to do, but yes, I don't think you should raid with us any more. Our schedules and possibly viewpoints are too different I'm afraid.

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I'm coming back into the thread! At the risk of aggravating things, here's my opinion.. again.

Blobb wrote:But, as I see it this rule shouldn't even speed up progress alot. (Feel free to prove me wrong, this is just my thoughts). If we wait until we have 9 A-teamers before we even try a new hard mode. How often will we then actually try newer hard modes? not often I believe.

There's a difference between a wipenight like Sarth3D and that thing we had on Hodir - it was clear we weren't anywhere close to getting the hardmode kill. The rule was put in to stop that kind of pandafest - no new hardmodes to be tried until we have a team that has a realistic chance at getting it done.

If we only did Ulduar normal, we'd clear it in one night (possibly). The only progress at the moment is through hardmodes - we NEED to do the Iron Council AND the four Keepers on hardmode to unlock the last boss of Ulduar - Algalon. Every week we are racing against time - we have Thursday to get up to the Keepers (preferably do 1-2 on hardmode), Saturday to work out a strategy for 2-3 new hardmodes, but by Monday we need to finish up what's left incl. Yogg-Saron and his chest pieces! If we can't assemble 9/10 A-locs, we do the run on normal - get gear upgrades now and postpone that hardmode try to next week or another evening with a stronger team.

Take today's (Saturday) raid: we can try wiping on Freya+2 or have a go at Mimiron Firefighter. But if we spend more than 2 hours wiping on the third Keeper, by the time we get to the fourth one we may not succeed at it - even in normal mode. And that means we may not do Vezax tonight, which means no Yogg-Saron until Monday - and none of the B-locs in tonight's raid get to see Yogg. They just spent 2 hours wiping for normal loot! Or instead, we do Freya and Mimiron normal tonight, try Vezax and Yogg-Saron TONIGHT - thus more B-locs get access to the chestpiece tonight (instead of Monday), and we save Freya and Mimi hardmode for next week. If anything, this system guarantees better drops for B-locs (as we down fewer bosses when we try new hardmodes).

Secondly, we've only tried 3/5 of the required hardmodes to unlock Algalon. They're Iron Council (SB last), Thorim and Hodir. Iron Council we still struggle with - it's a dps race, a dynamic switch in healing strategy per phase, ramping damage throughout, exploding tanks, and if anyone dies it's pretty much a wipe as he'll heal up and we run out of tanks. It's also an optional boss, so we're going to save it until we have the best chance of getting it done, and for now that means 9/10 A-locs. Then there's Hodir - we've been exceedingly lucky on him the last two weeks, with the melee getting buffed at the right time and juuuust scraping by the Hard Mode with seconds to spare. Again, there's heavy RNG which means 1/5 pulls are actually possible kills - we want to be able to get it. Thorim is the same story - tanks getting instagibbed by 36k non-crit swings, dps racing to down him before Thorim gets so Charged up that he destroys everything. And we haven't tried Freya+3 or Mimiron hard! My point here is: hardmode Keepers are quite a steep learning curve AND require good gear. Think Vaelastrasz and fire resistance here - it's more than like that than anything else we've seen in WotLK.

Thirdly, just because some hard modes are currently hard doesn't mean we won't ever try them with less than 9/10 A-locs. Some hard modes are already on farm - FL+2 and Freya+1 are already there. XT-002 heartbreaker is also on farm - if the dps can destroy the heart, it's a hardmode attempt (we nearly didn't get it this week though, even with 9/10 A-locs!). It's the new Keeper attempts, where we're still coming up with a strategy that works for the murlocs, that we're giving prio to A-locs. We're nearly there on IC and possibly Hodir.

Blobb wrote:WHO in WMD doesn't have patience with wipes? (I've never seen anyone complain over wipes and I certainly haven't ever done that. And I've wiped with you alot, and I've also caused a bunch of wipes but you seem to have patience with me learning?)
I think we'll progress faster by, doing the bosses we can getting loot, dieing on the hardmodes that are within our reach and letting everyone learn by dieing.

This is exactly what we'll be doing with the new system. We'll still do hardmodes we CAN do (FL+2, XT-002, Freya+1) and save progression hardmodes to another week. We'll still kill bosses, get normal loot, finish the instance. What we won't do is waste time on FL+3 and other optional hardmodes unless we have a team of A-locs, and even then we're giving it only a few wipes before moving on to our current progression: hardmode Keepers. We just can't afford to waste a whole evening on a hardmode Keeper, or FL+3, when we could just do FL+2 and get to the good parts.

Blobb wrote:But if the A-team goes and kills a new hardmode, I wouldn't have any part of it. Because I wouldn't have wiped on it, or even been anywhere near it, because only some in WMD are "allowed" to. And thus I (and the other B-teamers) would be excluded from any sense of pride of a new kill. Simply because WE WEREN'T THERE.
So yea, this rule is.. imo killing a BIG part of equality among WMD members and all that comes with that.
And only to try and make the A team progress faster. (yes, the A team)

You may not be in on the first kill, but then again... you may be! There's nearly always room for one B-loc on progression nights. Once we have that hardmode on or near farm - or time stops being an issue - it's open to all murlocs.

Remember that Algalon is still on a 1-hour per week lockout. If we unlock him, all he "costs" us is one extra hour of raiding a week.

PS: Why are my posts always so goddamn long -.-

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See, that's what's great with WMD - you have people annoyed because they can't wipe enough!

There are several fair points in this whole thread, but rather than keep debating them, I suggest what we do is TRIAL the new rank system just for 1 month and then get feedback on it and see what actual problems crop up.

At the moment there's a bit of fear and concern about what might go wrong, rather than what actually has. After all, it's only been a week. I think we need more time to test this scheme.

Rest assured if I think anybody in Team Casual or Team Hardcore is getting unfairly screwed over by this system, I'll do what I can to fix it.

And if the majority consensus is that we go back to the old system after 1 month, then that's what we'll do too.

I think Blobb summed it up very well indeed. Lots of valid points. Especially the one about wiping. I'm sure I'm not wrong when I say that people DO want to wipe more, because it means they're dedicating themselves to the group. In my past experience, feeling like you've paid your dues is essential, so you don't feel like a ninja when loot actually drops for you.

@ Card. I can certainly understand that your aim is to keep A and B teams equal, the only difference being how hardcore they raid, but i still keep thinking that the criteria used to pick team A leaves no room for misunderstanding. Team A are a superior team, purely because their gear, experience, dps, tps, hps...whatever, was deemed better than those who didn't make team A. A spade is a spade etc.

By the way, if they are any spelling, puntuation and grammar mistakes in this post, i'm writing it on my phone which is connected to Jheera's parents' wireless. How cool is that! *buffs fingernails*

...okay, probably not very, but give me my moment!

Argh!! I can see mistakes, and my phone won't let me edit the post! *twitch twitch*

I need to get to a computer...quickly!

I've been reading this on and off for about a week now (t'interweb is expensive on a mobile), and I do have some opinions.

Now, I have always said that I would wait the month or so to see how the new system pans out. Well, I said it to me and Rynar, not necessarily to anyone else, but I did say it And I have been having a very good think about the system when I've been away, shepherding old ladies about on cruise ships, and getting sunburned in London, of all places.

I try my hardest every raid, even if sometimes my head isn't all there sometimes. Still learning shaman, getting better at it (I think), but still held back by two things - gear, and to some extent I am held back by my spec. Elemental shamans are a bit rubbish at the moment, not that I am making that an excuse, but as a DPS class we bring totems for the pleasure of all caster types and a bit of DPS. Ghostcrawler wants to work on our ability to move in fights, since he has admitted that we are quite gimped in Ulduar which has many fights that mean you have to run around like a lunatic.

I also swapped to shaman because I thought that it would be more useful to WMD for you to have another buffing class since we had an influx of hunters. Better to have another option than too many people shooting things and letting their wolves suicide on certain bosses. Poor Cully. Part of me worries that I have hara kiri'd on my own willingness to swap classes since Skathi is better geared, but then that is something I have to deal with myself

So at the moment, I'm fighting several things - class limitations, learning curves, and gearing up (and having to gem pure +hit and turning down better gear because I can't lose the hit...ouch). I am aware that I wasn't good enough as a hunter to be in Team A anyway, but I am now rather concerned that there would be no way for me to even have some sort of chance to be there as Jheera. I just really want to help Murloc, I like being useful, and I am just worried that I am unable to contribute as much as I can. As Cardinal is also aware, I also have not much confidence when it comes to raiding, and this has hit me a little.

For me, I find these changes rather intimidating. I love raiding, I play the game for it these days, it's my favourite thing to do in WoW bar none. I am now worried that I am going to lose that to some extent, because the fight for places will be fierce for us on the B Team. I have been in Hardcore groups before (before TBC, I admit) and I have always looked for the group with the casual attitude but the hardcore organisational abilities.

But as I said, I will consider this more after the month is up, and after coming back into game to see how this goes. It just is a bit of a shock, to be signed up as a full member, to be pushed back to being more of a reserve.

However, I will strive to improve, keep on building my piecemeal Enhancement gear for when Ghosty says that I am nothing but a pretty totem that stands around waving lightning bolts, and be interested at the DPS comparison I can get

Skathi wrote:... have to run around like a lunatic.

Yes, this! Grrrrr.

Anyway, stay elemental with Jheera. The caster buffs are lovely! (likewise, you should see an improvement to your performance if I'm with you in the raid as I'm still scorch debuffing).

To add something to my stance on this, I am more than happy to undertake a roation in the healers. Although I only speak for myself on this.

Ry - As you are our only sub healer, if you can sign up for every raid you can make, I can use this as a guide. Some nights I really can't be fucked to raid or what ever and as you don't sign up (Not recently anyway, but I think you are away?) then I don't take the time away. I am not saying you ill pass on raids every week, as some weeks I won't. But I am more than happy to sit out some nights so you can raid if you are free.

D

*watches Ry leap to his new mobile to post *

He's like Batman would be, if Batman had WAP.

To the Rymobile!

I like puns.

Oi! You make me sound really sad! I know that i am, but you're not supposed to say so!

Anyway, that's very kind of you Derky, as always, especially considering you really don't have to. I have been busy recently, as you suspected. It's been a very hectic week, filled with stress, big workloads and car crashes which have meant i've not been able to sign, but rest assured i will do when i can do :-)

I think this discussion has blown out of proportion how minor this whole rank change actually is.

There is NO difference between a Reservist and a Team B member. They are 100% identical things.

If you used to be a Reservist, this new rank system makes no difference to you. The only change that effects you is that there's now a nice rota to ensure you'll get a spot eventually.

Only 5 people have been demoted from full members to reservists under this new system. They are: Li, Kayte, Blobb, Jheera and Taminak.

As far as I can see, they're the only people with a legitimate reason to complain about the rank change. For everyone else, there's no change at all, it's business as usual.

So I think the real debate should whether Li, Kayte, Blobb, Taminak or Jheera deserved to be made reservists.

Whether or not we'll try hard modes with x number of people is a side issue, and something that is just decided on the day. We will try hard modes with reservists if it seems doable.

I wasn't 'complaining', simply offering my opinion - something which you asked for from everyone at the beginning of the thread. And having been a member of several raid groups in the past that have done the exact same thing, I thought my opinion was relevant.

Which is why I said -

Doesn't bother me of course, as I was a reservist, and this new ranking system changed nothing for me. I don't think I'll ever really be a full member.

in an earlier post.

Apologies, I didn't mean to infer that anybody was complaining. Just that those 5 have a right to.

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I wish I had realised back then it was that simple, but sadly I didn't.

This thread was created to discuss the idea. I needed to hear from different people until I could wade through all the info and come to a conclusion, which smacked me in the face today.

With hindsight this thread would have been a lot neater. I would have given those 5 a more gentle warning of the scheme. I'm not thrilled with how this has turned out, but that's life. Hindsight always turns up to the party late.

Unfortunately I can't really win on the sugar-coating. If I tell it like it is, I upset people who think they're being labelled. If I try not to label people, I'm sugar-coating.

If any of the 5 are unhappy at being made Reservists, I'll do my best to listen. I apologise to anybody who feels ill-treated to date. Internet debates are never pretty and I've made my fair share of mistakes as raid leader.

Well, then.
It's nice to know we're on the same plane.
We sure as hell weren't when I first announced that I'm not being happy with being labeled as lesser, and not being as much part of WMD as I was before.
And I got to hear that I am indeed still an equal part of WMD and that I'm not lesser.

But yea. Let's move past that.
To sum up this thread:

5 people were demoted, to speed up raid progress.
and a new system is made to make sure reservists gets a spot eventually, based on how much the reservist has raided.

nothing more needs saying here really, I think?

Blobb wrote:To sum up this thread:

5 people were demoted, to speed up raid progress.
and a new system is made to make sure reservists gets a spot eventually, based on how much the reservist has raided.

nothing more needs saying here really, I think?

The Gnome speaks the truth.