Proposal: A change to the rank structure in WMD

I am proposing a change to the ranks in WMD.

I am proposing that we scrap the current 'full member' and 'reservist' ranks and replace them with 'Hard Mode Raider' and 'Raider' ranks.

'Hard Mode Raiders' will always get a raiding slot (if they sign-up).

A “Hard Mode Raider” is defined as someone with the gear and experience to tackle hard mode kills.

Raids with less than 9 'Hard Mode Raiders' signed up will not attempt to do hard modes, unless they're extremely easy ones. We'll just do a fun, low stress normal raid and give gear and experience to those people who need it.

Why make this change? Hard mode attempts require most of the raid to be very well geared and skilled. Taking a mixture of gear and experience into raids means we're never sure if we can handle a hard mode. This uncertainty causes us to wipe until we discover that we do/don't have the required strength. Additionally, in 3.2 hard mode raids will be a separate raid all-together. If we're going to try them, we need to make sure we can survive!

“Does this mean I suck if I'm not a hard-mode raider?”

I don't think anybody in WMD sucks, if you did - you wouldn't be in WMD. Everybody in WMD has the innate skill needed to do a hard mode kill. Experience and gear aren't innate however, sadly.

If you aren't made a 'Hard Mode Raider' just yet, fear not - you can still raid with us. Please sign-up. You are still welcome!

The only difference is that a 'Hard Mode Raider' will get priority over you. Why? Because they have better gear and experience. And they give me oral s—cissors. Yes, oral scissors.

“How am I ever going to become a hard mode raider if I can't raid?”

Good question! The huge likelihood is you will still get to raid with us! We'll still happily do normal mode Ulduar clears and help gear you up if we don't get the required sign-ups. We're not doing this for charity, we're doing it because it's a lot more fun than wiping on content out our league. It's not your fault if the hard mode people don't sign up!

Secondly, in 3.2 you can get tier 8 and 9 loot from just doing 5-man instances! This allows anybody to gear up in their own spare time, which means you won't miss out on much.

I will be the nasty dictator who decides if someone is no longer a 'Hard Mode Raider' or just a 'Raider' who has earned a promotion. I won't do this on a whim though. I'll discuss it with others first, and I'll talk to you if you're involved. I'm nice like that.

The reason for doing this is not to create a Berlin Wall between hard mode people and regular folks. It's just that at the moment – we don't know if we can manage a hard mode until we've wiped a dozen times, which is a real waste of everybody's time and it's not much fun. Nobody wants to feel like they're being carried.

In reality, little will change from the way it is now, except one week, (maybe) someone will get a slot they wouldn't have ordinarily got.

WMD is a democratic raid group! If you think this idea sucks more than a toothless prostitute – tell me! Share your rage! If you think it's quite a good idea however, please say so too! Bribes via direct debit only thx.

Over to you.

Hmm, interesting - it looks very good on paper, but if there's issues with it in practice I'm sure we'll fix that too. Let me uses examples:

- Signed: 8 hard, 1 normal, 1 free slot
- Last to sign: 1 hard + 1 normal

Here, the hard murloc would get dibs as it would complete the 9/10 requisite for hard mode tries - this is the nobrainer situation! But what about:

- Signed: 6 hard, 3 normal, 1 free slot
- Last to sign: 1 hard + 1 normal

Even with 7 hard and 3 normal murlocs in the raid, we still won't have the 9/10 needed for hardmode tries. So does the late, hard signee get dibs on a raidspot anyway?

I would say whomever out of them signed first as there isn't the required amount to try hard modes. But that's just me =)

I've seen many of these such preposals over the years. No matter how well you sugar coat it and pump mist all around it, its an A and B team.

I don't have an issue with it, no matter what team I am in. Just think some people will. I've always taken the side / role of the group, which in this case is its a good idea and hopefully it will stop us wasting our time on encounters we just don't have the raid for (at that time)

I'd just like to know why the sudden change, bad raid last night? I've many a times quote our "officers" in my head in saying "The day we have to stack raids is the day I stop playing" or some version of that.


With what ever happens, you got my support.

D

Derky wrote:I've seen many of these such preposals over the years. No matter how well you sugar coat it and pump mist all around it, its an A and B team.

I don't have an issue with it, no matter what team I am in. Just think some people will. I've always taken the side / role of the group, which in this case is its a good idea and hopefully it will stop us wasting our time on encounters we just don't have the raid for (at that time)

I'd just like to know why the sudden change, bad raid last night? I've many a times quote our "officers" in my head in saying "The day we have to stack raids is the day I stop playing" or some version of that.


With what ever happens, you got my support.

D

Just read another thread and looked at the WSS stats, I understand why this has been posted.

D

Derky's right that this is a sugar-coated version of an A & B team. Everybody here is probably smart enough to realise that. I dislike the terms though because we're in a weird raid group where everybody is actually nice, and I don't want to upset folks.

This idea has come up now because it's only in the last 2 weeks we've started taking hard modes seriously and I've realised what the requirements are. Those who came on Thursday and Saturday can testify just how tough certain hard modes can be unless you've got the right team in attendance.

I'm still against class stacking, which I define as bringing the class, not the player. I also think someone who class stacks ignores the personality of the raider, but for me, personality is still important. I wouldn't take someone with the gear and experience required to do a hard modes if they had the personality of a rancid trout.

I do want to stress again that "B team" raiders are still welcome to sign-up and will get to come to raids. The main difference is that we'll know in advance if we've got the strength to tackle a hard mode on a particular night.


PS) Bal is right in his post!

I think it seems like a very fair and logical suggestion, and I think credit has to be given for offering the team clear information and some input in making the decision on the matter too. In reality a Raid Leader has to decide if a particular group is going to cut it against certain content, or not. Having a clearly stated policy on when its viable to throw ourselves at a Hard Mode and when its not is the finest way to avoid drama in overall.

Minor drama over "I'm not in the A-Team /pout" is much lesser than handling the bigger crap when a team become disillusioned over failure to progress, feeling held back by the gear or experience of other players or the frustration of not understanding why a decision to tackle content at a particular level is made.

And just to add both dimensions to the scenarios - I'd in all probablilty be a C if there was one! Or maybe even in a purely 'Aspirational Raider' category as the reality of my time, gear and practical experience don't ever seem to meet up in the way I'd like them to. I feel a huge burden of noobiness when I know I'm filling a spot contributing DPS on a minimal level by comparisson, and often times only experiencing content either first time or with the barest of experience. All that makes me hyper aware of the fact that the smallest error from me can have costly effects in terms of time spent wiping and indiviuals repair costs too. Being a part of the Murlocs is fantastic (prob the best part of playing WoW these days), and from my perspective I know a policy like this will mean I can contribute to the team at an appropiate level which will actually be a genuine contribution and not simply a pain in the arse to the more experienced and better geared Murlocs who would otherwise be carrying my nooby butt.

Pryn

I think it's fine in principle. We're all nice, mature people and there's no shame involved in being a 'normal mode' raider (- I'd strongly describe myself as such due to RL time constraints at present). WMD is a great squad and everyone here is a talented player.

My only concern is that normals would feel left out of the action somewhat, especially if competition for raid spots is tight. I'm also curious to know what happens to the structure of the group when 3.2 and the associated new 10-man content is released.

I would like to see some more expansion upon the ideas. What about off specs, for example - would offspec in Team A be higher on priority than a mainspec of Team B? I also share Kayte's questions in regards to the levelling of gear (or at least the theoretical levelling, some people can heroic harder than others ) in 3.2, and that we are oversigning quite often on the raids anyway so there may be people regularly left out.

I just need more info in order to mull this over, really. I am one of those who expects to be in the B team, and I want to know what sort of level I'd need to be to in order to have a chance at being in the A team (apart from beating Blizzard with a stick until they give Elemental shaman a break, of course. I'm gimping my DPS for your crit, dammit! And yes, we are frenzying at the moment - general consensus says we suck and GC admits we are rubbish when there is a fight that requires us to move) apart from more experience and more gear. I am aware this is the price of switching from a higher itemised and experienced character though!

So, got fact?

Skathi wrote:I would like to see some more expansion upon the ideas. What about off specs, for example - would offspec in Team A be higher on priority than a mainspec of Team B? I also share Kayte's questions in regards to the levelling of gear (or at least the theoretical levelling, some people can heroic harder than others ) in 3.2, and that we are oversigning quite often on the raids anyway so there may be people regularly left out.

If team A and team B are theoretically not a group of 10 people that are in one raid, but the seperation between "hard mode raiders" and "raiders" then in reference to loot (I assume this is what you mean). I can't see that our loot rules would change. Ultimately there is little point in giving offspec loot to a "hard mode raider" if a "raider" needs it for main-spec. Since if they never got loot then they would never be eligible to become a "hard mode raider".

If of course you mean that in-filling a spot, an off-spec "hard mode" raider against a main-spec "normal raider". Then presumably it would be down to the discretion of Cardinal. Since say theorically I was filling in as a healer spot for a raid night as Restoration. But then a "normal" raider - mainspec healer signed as well. It would ultimately depend on.
1) Who is already on the team.
2) What sort of healing is required for the fights.

And a number of other factors.

Presumably we also need to organise who has what offspecs and organise those off-specs into similar categories.

I was meaning in terms of sign up priority. If, say, a healer was needed, and a choice had to be made between someone from the Hard Mode team offspeccing, and someone from the Normal Mode team mainspeccing. Though I suppose it would depend on the rest of the make up of the raid?


ETA: You edited just as I was replying, not fair! But what I was meaning was what you said in the second bit

Skathi wrote:I was meaning in terms of sign up priority. If, say, a healer was needed, and a choice had to be made between someone from the Hard Mode team offspeccing, and someone from the Normal Mode team mainspeccing. Though I suppose it would depend on the rest of the make up of the raid?

Just edited in the answer to this while you were typing. I thought I'd do it faster

STOP REPLYING!

Otherwise we'll be at it all night!

...when I say it, I don't mean It.

Skathi wrote:STOP REPLYING!

Otherwise we'll be at it all night!

...when I say it, I don't mean It.

Heh. Just in addition to this:

Presumably we also need to organise who has what offspecs and organise those off-specs into similar categories.

If there is 10 "hard mode-raiders" in a raid. And two of them switch to off-spec - are they considered to be normal mode in those off-specs and as such nullify the raids attempts at hard mode.

Here I'm thinking me and Marv when it comes to Mimiron if we're short on ranged for the hard mode. Of course then it's questionable whether or not we would try hard mode Mimiron if we are without 2 "hard mode" ranged DPS.

Loot rules shouldn't need to change. Main Spec is still king, regardless of what team you're in.

Someone could make the argument that it's more productive to give Team A loot over Team B if they're both in the same raid together, but this is a short-term strategy at best. People from Team A could leave or take a break, and we'd be screwed, unable to do hard modes until people from Team B had geared up.

It would also really suck to be in Team B if you couldn't roll on stuff for your main spec!

Team A status only applies to people's main specs. It's just too complicated to give everybody 2 separate ranks based on their different specs.

I haven't even begun to look at who is what rank yet, I'm still keen to get feedback, and problems with the idea are most welcome. They allow us to refine the scheme and deal with issues now, rather than in the middle of a raid.

As a murloc with a very worn dual-spec button, let me add my view on the whole gear/offspec thing. I get dibs on upgrades for my main spec - healer gear. While a lot of it is good enough for my moonkin spec, unless I get very lucky with loot, my offspecs will always be at least 1/2-1 tier behind my main spec (my cat gear is the poorest of my three specs at the moment, for example).

So far we've done only a handful of hardmodes - Mimiron, Yogg-Saron, these are all normal mode kills. So while Dahl and I have been swapping roles depending on whether we need ranged dps or not, they've all been on normal kills. Any murloc, regardless of rank, should perform well at that!

Hard modes are a different game, and I've only tried 2 Ulduar hard modes in an offspec, and only on one did I go offspec on the first kill.

- On XT I went kitty on our second hardmode kill (we did it with 3 healers the first time). We needed extra dps this week, so we decided to chance a run with only 2 healers. Considering the nature of the fight, we decided to try it with me as cat and D staying healer. On this specific boss it was a doozy: a stationary boss is very vulnerable to kitty dps, even if said kitty is undergeared.. Having had one hardmode kill on this boss was a definite bonus, we knew how to avoid damage and we had a working strategy.

- On Hodir I went kitty again and it didn't go so well. A lot of movement and inability to attack from behind always meant my dps was decidedly "normal" - only passing 5k on one try, and staying around 3k most of the other tries. We were clearly at least one "hard" dps'er short on this fight, and therefore failed at getting our first hard mode kill on Hodir this raid. Offspecs are not as flexible/experienced as main specs, a clear weakness when learning a new fight!

It is partly up to me to judge whether me going offspec can help us on a boss or not. Sometimes I don't know for sure - Hodir was an example. I thought I could maintain high dps here too, but Hodir is not the target dummy XT is. We found that out the hard way after 12 wipes on Thursday. With the proposed rank structure, the rest of the raid would better be able to judge whether we can do a kill - I can tell them I do 4k dps on a stationary target, and only 3k on a more complex fight, and everyone can decide whether it's worth having a wipefest on something like that.

Obviously I have a fairly new perspective on all this, being a relative noob in the world of murlocdom, but basically seems reasonable to me.

When it comes to worrying about being rotated out or not getting to go, probably also worth considering that as we are such a nice bunch of folk in general, if it's going to be a non-achivement night, you may well find that "hard" murlocs will happily yield spots to "squishy" murlocs anyway.

And thus while one evening a "regular" murloc got bumped in favour of a "loony" one, on another evening the "mint choc chip" will effectively be bumped in favour of the "vanilla".

I mean - personally speaking, hardmode XT-002 is a priority for me now (as it's the only place I can realistically get any sort of ranged upgrade from), beyond that anything involving a new achievement that I've not done is of interest, apart from that I'm basically easy, happy either to be there to help other folk get stuff down, or to stand aside so that someone else can be there. As long as raids are happening and folk are having fun things should be good!

Here it is then, the first draft of Team A and Team B. Please speak up here, or to me in private, if you're unhappy with what Team you've been put in. Nothing is set in stone.

Team A: Cardinal, Gimil, Marveen, Derky, Zuzuna, Taqwa, Telluria, Akari, Balgarim, Dahlaine

I felt the people above could either (A) Do a minimum of 4k DPS consistently, (B) Survive the hardest hitting bosses (C) Heal us through anything we've fought so far.

I think we can do hard modes with 9 people from Team A. People in Team A will always get a raid spot if they sign-up.

There's no upper limit to Team A - it'd be cool if everybody in WMD was in Team A. It's also possible to drop from A to B if things don't work out.

This means Team B is:

Team B: Jheera, Aldan, Prynkesse, Squeek, Blobb, Kayte, Faehla, Yazminea, Topanca, Taerix, Rynar, Erynia.

If you're Team B: Keep signing! The chances of us having all 10 from Team A sign-up for a raid are slim at best, and we want to gear up you up to Team A status. I suspect most of you will get to raid as much as you ever did.

Some of the people in Team B are almost good enough to go in Team A right now, so it shouldn't take long for you to progress.

The following haven't raided with us enough lately for me to tell what Team they belong to:

Mystery Men: Li, Taminak

Thursdays raid will be done under the new rank structure. We need 9 from Team A to attempt a hard mode where wiping is possibility. (We could probably do FL + 1 with 10 inanimate bowls of trifle).

Thanks for your patience and understanding with this. My hope is that it will make raiding in WMD even more fun than it is already. There are no doubt a ton of kinks and minor improvements to make in this system, so please bear with it until we've fixed them all.

Cardinal wrote:
Team C Inanimate bowls of trifle

Please move me to this group

D

Derky wrote:Team C Inanimate bowls of trifle

I want to see Team C.1: Animate bowls of trifle!

Derky wrote:

Cardinal wrote:
Team C Inanimate bowls of trifle

Please move me to this group

D

*buuuurp*

Too late D.... I ate Team C already.

/sigh of contentment.

How about a special D Team just for you then?
Just don't call it after any baked goods or creamy desserts... I wont be held accountable for any unexpected scoffing if you do.

Dumpling, Doughnut, Danish Pastry, Dick (Spotted)?

I've been meaning to take part in this thread - but I've just been too busy (coupled with it being a pain in the ass to post coherent posts from a phone...but anyway).

As I said to Card ingame, I think this is a hard choise to make - and for some, might be hard to accept - but to everyone's credit, everyone has taken the choice very well sofar, kudos!

Personally, from a greed perspective, I think this is a great idea *for me*, as I am very interested in doing the hardmodes, while I'm not even nearly as interested in the easymode stuff.
This does mean - especially with the mounting work situation, that I might start sitting out non-hardmode raids actively, focusing on new achievement-raids and the bosses I want loot from (Deconstructor hardmode, Hodir hardmode, etc).

And I hope that together, we'll get everyone into the "A team" very soon.

And the question(s?)

Q1. Does this alter the Reservist structure? Or does the Reservist structure remain, side-by-side with this? (Effectively making Main Team A > Main Team B > Reserve Team A > Reserve Team B - assuming of course, any of the Reservist team was A ranked (afaik, looking at the current list, everyone in Team A is a "main raider")

Q2. Does being part of the A team mean we get a new mount? While those black striped Dodge's were pretty cool... they're a bit 80's...