Proposal: A change to the rank structure in WMD

There are a few points to the structure that I'm still not sure about. I guess we need to try it and see what problems arise.

For example, do Team A's always get priority or do they only get priority when their attendance will make the difference and turn it into a hard mode raid?

My current thought is to just to do away with the reservist thing, you're either A or B. At least for now.

I'd suggest that suicidal murlocs should only get priority if it's make-or-break for the raid. If it's going to be a regular raid, then sane murlocs should get just as much priority as suicidal ones...

Telluria wrote:I'd suggest that suicidal murlocs should only get priority if it's make-or-break for the raid.

This sounds good to me.

Moving this discussion here, as I don't want to have it in a sign-up post.

Cardinal wrote:This is a full team A raid now.

Because Taminak's rank is still TBC, I've made him a reserve.

Team A people are now only guaranteed a slot when it makes the difference between a regular raid or a hard mode raid. Taminak signed first, and we had 9 able people already, so he is given back the slot over Akari, who signed later.

If that doesn't make sense, ask me!

This doesn't make sense to me. Why deliberately make it harder than it already is? Surely, it would be easier to tackle hard modes with the best possible team.

Akari wrote:Moving this discussion here, as I don't want to have it in a sign-up post.

Cardinal wrote:This is a full team A raid now.

Because Taminak's rank is still TBC, I've made him a reserve.

Team A people are now only guaranteed a slot when it makes the difference between a regular raid or a hard mode raid. Taminak signed first, and we had 9 able people already, so he is given back the slot over Akari, who signed later.

If that doesn't make sense, ask me!

This doesn't make sense to me. Why deliberately make it harder than it already is? Surely, it would be easier to tackle hard modes with the best possible team.

Akari has a point. This does sound a bit flawed.

D

The point of the proposal is to avoid a wipefest when we have too low a chance of downing the boss. We can handle one undergeared tank/healer/dps, but more than 1 and the RNG stacks against us. This is especially noticeable on fights where we need to reduce to 2 healers to beat an enrage timer (like Hodir) - if a dpser is inexperienced at moving and nuking, a tank is too squishy or a healer lacks the oomph to handle raidwide damage, it's a bit pointless to try to "get lucky". Then it's best to just kill that boss normally, get the gear upgrade and move on.

There's only 10 murlocs on the A-list at the time I write this - and not all of them/us sign up for every raid. So, often we have <7 A-locs, and sometimes we have 8+ A-locs. If we wait for 10/10 A-locs, we won't try hard modes most weeks with this proposal. Which is why we settled on "if we have at least 9 A-murlocs, it's a progression night!". The proposal was not created to maximise raid performance, it came about to counter brick wall syndrome So while it works at one end of the spectrum ("not enough A-locs -> skip hard modes"), it clashes with another murloc rule at the other end ("first come first serve" <-X-> "bench a B-loc for an A-loc").

However, we seem to be running out of easy hardmodes, so maybe even 9/10 A-locs isn't enough (or people need to be reevaluated ). If hardmodes aren't forgiving of even 1 B-murloc, I'm sure the proposal will be up for revision - Cardinal can confirm this (or not) when he gets back from work.

We've kinda fucked over a few people with this system it turns out.

With out this system, Akari would of got that slot and we would be having a full A team outing, as this system has in essence premoted our reserves to full members that has been removed.

D

Marveen wrote:There's only 10 murlocs on the A-list at the time I write this - and not all of them/us sign up for every raid.

We don't have 10 Team A members every single raid, no. But there is a reason that it is those ten people who have been chosen as A members - they sign up for almost every raid. Despite what keeps getting repeated, these ten A members DO sign up for close to every raid. Just look at this raidweek, all A members have signed up for Saturday and Monday.

Marveen wrote:If we wait for 10/10 A-locs, we won't try hard modes most weeks with this proposal. Which is why we settled on "if we have at least 9 A-murlocs, it's a progression night!".

I'm not suggesting that we should wait for 10/10 A members to sign up for it to be considered a hard mode raid. What I'm saying is that, how is it possible to rationally argue that we shouldn't pick the best possible team to deal with hard mode progression?

The rule works fine if there are 7 A members signed up as there's no reason to prioritize the 8th A member if it isn't going to be a hard mode raid.

Marveen wrote:The proposal was not created to maximise raid performance, it came about to counter brick wall syndrome

We have different views upon this, apparently.

Akari wrote:The rule works fine if there are 7 A members signed up as there's no reason to prioritize the 8th A member if it isn't going to be a hard mode raid.

Precisely - the rule doesn't work for choosing the 10th person, as it wasn't designed for that purpose! It works for every other scenario: 1/10, 2/10, ... , 7/10 and 8/10 A-locs.

I think the "first come first serve" rule is simple and robust - I like it. But I also see D's point, that this proposal has put former reservists at member level - I think that's what we need to sort out!

Marveen wrote:

Akari wrote:The rule works fine if there are 7 A members signed up as there's no reason to prioritize the 8th A member if it isn't going to be a hard mode raid.

Precisely - the rule doesn't work for choosing the 10th person, as it wasn't designed for that purpose! It works for every other scenario: 1/10, 2/10, ... , 7/10 and 8/10 A-locs.

Either you misunderstood my point or decided not to comment on it. I'll go with the former and attempt to explain it again. Quoting myself for easier clarification.

Akari wrote:What I'm saying is that, how is it possible to rationally argue that we shouldn't pick the best possible team to deal with hard mode progression?

IF it is possible to assemble the entire Team A, why not go with that and make sure that this is the maximized performance of WMD?

Marveen wrote:I think the "first come first serve" rule is simple and robust - I like it.

I'm not sure you are the right person to comment on that rule. I'm not sure any of the healers are. WMD only have three full time raid healers (Marveen, Zuzuna and Derky) and Rynar as an occasional backup, which means you are always secured a spot for the raids. As a result, you never have to deal with the "first come first serve" rule.

Quoting is so last year


Anyway, I agree with Akari, none of the healers are in a position to comment on that.

IF it is possible to assemble the entire Team A, why not go with that and make sure that this is the maximized performance of WMD?

Yes, and we should be doing this. Especially when it comes to those brought in as a reserve.
D

The argument against maximising raid performance by giving Team A priority always is:

1. It's perhaps the final nail in the grave that WMD is a casual raid group. That requires a complete re-think about what our priorities and principles are.

2. Giving 1 slot to Team B keeps them interested in sticking around. If the people from Team B never get to raid, they are likely to become disheartened and leave, which causes problems for us when we don't have a full Team A raid.

3. Bringing one person from Team B enables that person to get a few upgrades and perhaps evolve into a Team A member, given time.

4. Regarding the raid that is in question here, Taminak's rank has not been decided yet. He might be Team A calibre. 3 proper bosses was not enough to make a proper assessment on Thursday.



So ultimately, one reason not to maximise raid performance is that it's more fun not to. Arguably it does not maximise performance to only raid 3 times a week, but I wouldn't want to change that.

Either way, I haven't made a decision, I am just throwing out some more points for discussion. We need more voices on this matter.

My understanding of the new rules were that if a "Team A" member signed up, then they would get priority over a "Team B" member. I may have misunderstood the rules and so would like clarification!

Akari wrote:Either you misunderstood my point or decided not to comment on it. I'll go with the former and attempt to explain it again. Quoting myself for easier clarification.

IF it is possible to assemble the entire Team A, why not go with that and make sure that this is the maximized performance of WMD?

I'm sorry for not addressing that specific point. What I was trying to say is that we should be careful not to use rules to avoid having to make an arbitrary choice, which is sometimes the only way forward! The rank proposal says "we're at 9/10 A-locs, therefore we have enough to try hardmode regardless who signs next, A or B", and the signup rules say "first come first serve". That doesn't mean that's the end of all discussion - clearly, the rank rule fails at helping us choose who should come along on this raid. In fact, we're lucky to have the rule tested so soon, with Taminak being a ?-loc until further notice! Imo, rules are always a guideline - perhaps I'm being too Danish in seeing them that way, and a Swede would look at it differently..

Akari wrote:I'm not sure you are the right person to comment on that rule. I'm not sure any of the healers are. WMD only have three full time raid healers (Marveen, Zuzuna and Derky) and Rynar as an occasional backup, which means you are always secured a spot for the raids. As a result, you never have to deal with the "first come first serve" rule.

Then it's time to revise that rule!

You don't have to change anything in order to please me, but I just wanted you to know that this doesn't work for me. I don't have the liberty to check the forums every hour to see if the new raid sign-up has been posted. With the recent DPS recruitments, it has become increasingly difficult to get a spot in the raids. We have 3 healers for 3 raid spots, 3 tanks for 2 raid spots and 10 DPSers for 5 raid spots (and that's not counting everyone who was a reserve). I just... I don't understand why we need more than double the amount of DPSers required to fill a raid. Why do we not have 6 healers as well?

I thought the new rank structure would change this, but it's still hard for me to get a raid spot with the new rules applied, because I'm just not able to check the forums in time. Usually the raids are filled within a couple of hours. This hasn't been a problem in the past, but I have realized that it has become a problem for me with all the new DPS recruits.

I love the Where Murlocs Dare community. And I love raiding. But the two things coincide. I want to do both. Raiding once a week isn't enough for me though.

Although posting this will probably loose me the repuation I have fought to keep for years and almost deffintely cause a stroke in later life.

I am sure I can speak for the entire group and say that loosing one of our best DPS and a face from the community over this or the recruitment (Have we really recruited that many people?!) shouldn't take place. This needs to be sorted.

Couple of things come to mind:

A rotation for raid slots between the core players. Some people come and go as they please at the moment with out any warning, this is why we are in this position in the first place. A little thought for your fellow raid members wouldn't go a miss in those cases.

Or

We look at reducing the ranks again, we do seem to have over recruited on the DPS side. Should of really suck when we got Skathi and Tell maybe, they filled up our raiding issues. Aldan has only managed to get a slot once and now we have issues with over filling and older members missing out.

D

Derky wrote:
We look at reducing the ranks again, we do seem to have over recruited on the DPS side. Should of really suck when we got Skathi and Tell maybe, they filled up our raiding issues. Aldan has only managed to get a slot once and now we have issues with over filling and older members missing out.

D

I suppose if you think this is needed, then the chances are it is.

So, being most likely the newist (beside Telluria, but shes in group A) I will be more then happy to leave, if it satifises other older and more veteraned members of WMD.

I enjoy raiding as much as the next person, but it seems this whole quarrell has arose from me recieving the raiding spot over Akari. So, most of this does really feel directed to me at the moment.

If you wish I can be put into permanent reserve and just be called upon when needs be.

Taminak wrote:

Derky wrote:
We look at reducing the ranks again, we do seem to have over recruited on the DPS side. Should of really suck when we got Skathi and Tell maybe, they filled up our raiding issues. Aldan has only managed to get a slot once and now we have issues with over filling and older members missing out.

D

I suppose if you think this is needed, then the chances are it is.

So, being most likely the newist (beside Telluria, but shes in group A) I will be more then happy to leave, if it satifises other older and more veteraned members of WMD.

I enjoy raiding as much as the next person, but it seems this whole quarrell has arose from me recieving the raiding spot over Akari. So, most of this does really feel directed to me at the moment.

If you wish I can be put into permanent reserve and just be called upon when needs be.

Nothing is directed directly at you, its directed at the system its self. If I thought you should be kicked or that this was aimed at you rest assured i'd say it. I don't beat around the bush, I actually find myself being incapable of using tact. Born that way *shrugs*

Don't get me wrong, you didn't exactly rock my world last night with your dps or ability, but you are clearly not some retard who has had his hand held through instance's. I would never agree to loosing a good player, if they have been here 10 minutes or 10 years. Its just we have a problem and I always end up being the black guy at a KKK rally in these sort of situations. (Bad metaphore but its the best I could come up with ...and not that I have a problem with that either, its generally the most fun I have out of the bedroom)

Suggesting that we reduce the ranks was a shit thing to say, I know that. Just venting. There will be a solution to the issue, just takes more than the 30 seconds I am giving myself to think about my reply.

D

Balgarim wrote:My understanding of the new rules were that if a "Team A" member signed up, then they would get priority over a "Team B" member. I may have misunderstood the rules and so would like clarification!

Cardinal wrote:Raids with less than 9 'Hard Mode Raiders' signed up will not attempt to do hard modes, unless they're extremely easy ones. We'll just do a fun, low stress normal raid and give gear and experience to those people who need it.

I still think you're looking at the rank rule the wrong way. It's is a retrospective rule, best used to determine what will happen AFTER we have 10 signups:

- 1 A-loc, 9 B-locs -> inanimate trifle raid
- 2 A-locs, 8 B-locs -> inanimate trifle raid
- 3 A-locs, 7 B-locs -> inanimate trifle raid
- 4 A-locs, 6 B-locs -> inanimate trifle raid
- 5 A-locs, 5 B-locs -> normal farm raid (IF 4 A-locs sign up as #11+, they get dibs!)
- 6 A-locs, 4 B-locs -> normal farm raid (IF 3 A-locs sign up as #11+, they get dibs!)
- 7 A-locs, 3 B-locs -> normal farm raid (IF 2 A-locs sign up as #11+, they get dibs!)
- 8 A-locs, 2 B-locs -> normal farm raid (IF 1 A-loc signs up as #11+, s/he gets dibs!)
- 9 A-locs, 1 B-loc -> hard mode progression raid
- 10 A-locs, 0 B-locs -> hard mode progression raid

A single late A-loc signup will only push out a B-loc who signed earlier if it's an 8/10 raid and they make the difference between trying hardmodes (9/10) or not.

Healers DO prefer to have a full A-team - it's a lot easier to heal a well-geared tank/dps'ers who know what they're doing than someone with less experience! So from a purely selfish "how-does-my-life-get-easier" perspective, my task as a healer gets a lot easier with a raid full of A-locs.. Take last night on Mimiron - I think only Pocari has managed to cruise through their virgin mechagnome experience without dying. It's like the skyscraper jumping programme in the Matrix, everyone fails the first time. It's costing us an achievement to bring new people in every week, no matter how skilled they may otherwise be!

The only reason we have almost fixed healer spots is because our healers raid extremely regularly AND we have working hybrids to take over on the few times our core Oracles can't come: Dahl and Gimil are very regular presences on our team, and Rynar is currently permabenched, which afaik he has agreed to - we told him we were way full on healers when he signed. So we *are* 6 healers on team Oracle...

I think Akari is an A*-murloc, damn fine dpser and certainly agree with D on his comment about that. I do like the discussion so far - it's quite clear there's something not working and it's directly affecting the Coastrunners more than the Tanks/Oracles. So more opinions, please! I will obviously comment on things from my perspective as a healer but I make no apologies for that - you know where I'm coming from! So the more Coastrunner voices we can get in on this, the better.

Thanks for the nice words Derky.

Marveen wrote:The only reason we have almost fixed healer spots is because our healers raid extremely regularly (...)

What? Taqwa, Dahlaine, Balgarim, Telluria and myself don't raid regularly? Could you elaborate on that?

Marveen wrote:(...) AND we have working hybrids to take over on the few times our core Oracles can't come: Dahl and Gimil are very regular presences on our team, and Rynar is currently permabenched (...) So we *are* 6 healers on team Oracle...

Wrong. Dahlaine and Gimilkhâd can't sign up as healers, forcing you or any of the other healers to be a reserve for that raid.

Akari wrote:What? Taqwa, Dahlaine, Balgarim, Telluria and myself don't raid regularly? Could you elaborate on that?

If we hadn't had to cancel raids recently, we wouldn't have recruited people - we were 1-2 short every raid for 3 weeks or so. So far, we haven't had to cancel any raids because of lack of healers - our 3 healers are always there, and the few times they're not, we have backups. That's what I meant.

Akari wrote:Dahlaine and Gimilkhâd can't sign up as healers, forcing you or any of the other healers to be a reserve for that raid.

I repeat, we haven't had a lack-of-healers crisis. If we had, we'd have recruited the Tree of Lol guy and a few others. As is, we have Rynar permabenched.

Thanks for the comments all. Rest assured that both Akari and Taminak are lovely, decent players and I want to keep both of them!

Based on the current feedback the following seems simplest and will hopefully cause the least amount of drama:

Team A people are always guaranteed a slot, regardless of when they sign up. This is effect from now and all current and future raids will be adjusted to reflect this.

However, there can be at most 10 people in Team A. This means that people in Team A don't need to check the forum daily for fear of losing a slot. It also means that people in Team B will get more opportunity to raid, as all it takes is for 1 Team A raider to be absent for us to need their services.

If someone ever loses their Team A spot (by quitting WoW, raiding irregularly, turning into an inanimate trifle), only then will we add someone else, ideally from Team B.

It's my fault we over-recruiting on DPS. I did a recruitment drive after a couple of raids were cancelled or delayed due to poor attendance. Raid group recruitment is always a see-saw – you either have too many or too few!

With respect to Taminak, he actually joined before Telluria. In theory I should have stopped there with him. But then Telluria came along and hopefully you can understand why I was so keen to get him, as he's a first class player and a rather nice chap.

Aldan, if you're reading this, I do apologise that you've been unable to raid as often as you'd like. You seem keen enough to raid regularly. Whether you wish to stay is up to you. You're most welcome to. 3-4 weeks ago we couldn't get a raid together, so things do change quickly!

Hopefully this seems like the best approach for all involved. I'm still glad to hear from people in either team who are unhappy.

PS) I think, to be fairest, the cut off for Team A to sign up will have to be 24hours before the raid starts. People need to plan their evenings. Team B people shouldn't have to hang around in suspense until the raid starts to find out if they're in or out.

This looks like a good idea and is totally acceptable to me atleast. I'm really glad I brought this up, now I don't have to feel nervous if I'm unable to check the forums the day after a raid. So, thank you for that!

You don't need to read the rest unless you have a druid named Marveen.

I just need to tell you something, because reading back on the discussion I realize that I have been rather rude today, especially to you. I love raiding with WMD. In fact, the only reason I keep paying my subscription is because I raid with WMD. And it just really annoys me when I can't raid because I didn't check the forums in time. It has happened a few times now, but this Monday was just... Well, I don't know the English phrase, but this Monday was dråben, der fik bægeret til at flyde over. As a result, I was in a very angry mood when I decided to bring it up on the forums this afternoon and that ended up targeting you, as you were the first one to respond. I'd just like to apologize, even though my behaviour today is rather inexcuseable. I don't usually react that way, but I think you know that already.

Akari wrote:but this Monday was dråben, der fik bægeret til at flyde over.

I think the closest English phrase would probably be: The last straw which breaks the camel's back.

Anyway. I was at work while this discussion was going on, glad to see its all sorted. The ranking system was always going to have teething problems. Hopefully it will benefit WMD from now on in terms of progress, while remaining a group of awesome people to have a bit of fun with.

dråben, der fik bægeret til at flyde over.

How does someone supposedly living in East Whatnotexx know what this meen?!